The Beginning of the End

[CitizenSane]

What is arguably the most important election in recent American history is going to come to a close on Nov. 2. Whether you can or cannot participate, a win for either of the two political parties will likely affect the world on a national and international basis.

I wish to ask what your opinions are. Would either of the major presidential candidates in the running make a better leader and thus provide for a stronger America? And what makes you believe so? Is the two-party system the best way to choose a candidate, or should we have a diverse variety of people vying for the Presidency? And do you feel that the Electoral College, the group of people that voters actually go to the polls to vote for rather than candidates themselves, should have the right to select our president? Or is the popular vote the way to go?

I personally feel that America is waging war on fanatics when our own President happens to be an extremist. I honestly feel that his morals get in the way of his judgment (God is behind us? We are the only ones who are right? Eh?!), and when they don't, money does (what with all the big corporations supporting his campaign). I would feel better if Kerry was at the helm because he seems to me to be more moderate and realistic. The world is not made up of black and white areas, but of differing shades of gray that we must reason out with the powers of logic that human beings are endowed with. Either way, 9/11 has hit us hard, and I believe that Kerry has the right idea when he wants to regain the trust that other nations had in us during the Pre-Bush era.

At any rate, I'd like to hear your ideas. :) Perhaps we can start a discussion.

[Loser]

Due to my political views, I'm not on anyone's side. I can't remember who said this, but I agree with him...

"In USA elections, it's not selecting the better candinate - It's selecting the lesser of two evils".

I hated conservatism on the second I heard what it was like, and I have no idea how it has remained to this year. As in a text I turned from finnish to english in one of my projects,
"There are two things a nation needs - Equality and Freedom. Liberalism takes a little out of equality and gives it to freedom and socialism takes a little out of freedom and gives it to equality. On the same time, conservatism doesen't do anything."

[CitizenSane]

Originally posted by Loser@Oct 21 2004, 09:06 AM
"There are two things a nation needs - Equality and Freedom. Liberalism takes a little out of equality and gives it to freedom and socialism takes a little out of freedom and gives it to equality. On the same time, conservatism doesen't do anything."
2290


That quote was well-translated and thought-provoking. I agree that the President, as a representative of the people, must act in the people's best interests. Our country has prospered in its journey to provide freedom and equality for all, and if America is to survive as a free, democratic country, its leaders will heed these ideals.

[mahangee]

As I am not American, or I do not watch American TV I dont know all the pledges made to help the America and its country. But to be perfectly honest I believe Bush will go down as one of the worst Presidents in American history.

[Loser]

I would have wanted to see the presidential debates but "somehow", they aren't showing it on finnish TV...

[mahangee]

Yeah, I saw a bit of the last one and to me it appeared that Kerry won. Because every time Kerry attacked Bush all he could do was laugh, and make some poor come back.

Oh and was Bush proved to have a wire telling him what to say plugged in?

[CitizenSane]

I read a while back that Bush's strategy to portray Kerry as a bumbling flip-flopper backfired when Kerry proved he could handle himself in a debate. Of course, a candidate's talent at debating isn't the best factor when deciding who should be America's next president. It does seem, however, that Bush's lies on television during the debates were more outrageous than Kerry's were, as corrected by factcheck.org. And he can't own up to anything that he has done wrong. His image is that of a stubborn, egotistical child that believes that his way is the only right way. Are those the type of messages that America should portray to the rest of the world?

In regards to the Bush wire theory...

http://www.guardian.co.uk/usa/story/0,12271,1324388,00.html

I guess we'll never know. ;) Bush likes to keep many things under wraps. Most of his presidency, in my opinion, is about putting forth the best possible image while hiding all the things that could be open to criticism. He has raised the most money out of any candidate in the history of elections in the United States (according to author Charles Lewis in his book The Buying of the President 2004) by catering to big corporations in favor of the average citizen.

But I would love to hear any one else's views. Me more partisan than most, but I do try to be objective every once in a while. ^_^

[xsylom]

I personally think Kerry would be better, but he's still not very fit for the job. Bush seems like he's looking for war, literally looking for war. And Kerry just doesn't seem right...

[The Scribe]

Oh, Bush is bad news. If he is re-elected the American people are doomed. As for the rest of the world, I just hope everyone wakes up in time to force their own governments to NOT follow Bush - otherwise we'll all be doomed.

Bush uses scare tactics to get what he wants. Kerry is Bush's cousin, so he probably won't be much better but Bush needs to be given the push. I can't stand the man or what he says he stands for. He's got a hidden agenda, if people look around they will discover what that agenda is and it's got nothing to do with protecting the people.

[wildfire]

Originally posted by CitizenSane+Oct 21 2004, 01:36 PM--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(CitizenSane @ Oct 21 2004, 01:36 PM)</div><div class='quotemain'>He has raised the most money out of any candidate in the history of elections in the United States (according to author Charles Lewis in his book The Buying of the President 2004) by catering to big corporations in favor of the average citizen.
[/b]
Do you mean like instead of the average citizen or something cause you said in favor and i don't think that fits your overall tone.

<!--QuoteBegin-The Scribe@Oct 21 2004, 06:19 PM
Kerry is Bush's cousin, so he probably won't be much better but Bush needs to be given the push.
[/quote]
is he really his cousin? or is that some kind of phrase or something?

I personally think that Bush would be a better president than Kerry. This is not to say that I think either one of them should lead this Nation. What we really need is to do away with the whole Electoral College thing and the Two-Party system. We have ample technology to efficently and effectively conduct a popular vote that woul directly elect a president. And the two party system is crap. Does anyone even care about Democrats or Republicans? We are a democratic republic, and the average people that I meet are usually a little bit of both parties. Anyways, there is my rant and i am too tired to effectively finish it, so there it is. Good night.

[oblivious]

Since only 1% of the people who are going to vote don't know who they are voting for... all the debates really were for was to motovate more of "their people" to get out and vote Nov. 2nd.

If you watched the last debate... Bush made points of Guns and gay marriages and war on terror and kinda made it seem like "If you liked the last 4 years, vote for me"

and Kerry... he made points about Raising minimum wage... which was directed to the women and minorities of the nation. He also made it seem as "if you didnt like the last 4 years, vote for me"

If you noticed... no matter what the question was... it always came back to these points... mainly because they really don't have to worry about getting the undecided to go one way or the other because the group is so small. They have to work on motovating voters to actually go out and vote.

If the election were tomorrow... I would have to say Bush would win mainly because there are more signs up for him and his voters seem more motevated.

I won't give my political stance... mainly because it's not really all that important... mainly cause i'm only 17 :P

[The Scribe]

Originally posted by wildfire@Oct 22 2004, 12:24 PM
is he really his cousin? or is that some kind of phrase or something?

2405


Yes, they are related.

[mahangee]

Yeah, to be honest you should get good old Bill back.

[crimsonmoon]

The only problem with Kerry is if he has his way our taxes are going to go through the roof. While nationwide health care does seem really nice it would have a huge impact on the average american.

Did anyone see the video on the news this morning about kerry doing some hunting.

I wonder whose trying to appeal to all those NRA Bush freaks :)

[CitizenSane]

Hi all! :) Oh, I did mean instead, thank you for the correction, wildfire!

I just watched Fahrenheit 9/11 :blink: Has anyone else? Now I'm all the more enthused to get out there and fight for the fall of Bush's empire. Any opinions, comments? I'm only seventeen, too, oblivious, but the election's going to affect us, too! :-D

The only things certain in life are death and taxes. A vote for Kerry is more likely elevate taxes, but Bush is more likely to elevate the number of deaths. That's my two cents for the day ;)

[688206002]

Personally I highly doubt that Kerry can be a better prez than Bush... before you all start calling me an ignorant Canadian, I must let you know that most of my relatives are Americans. (And Im not saying'Bush is good... but he's better than Kerry IMHO)

Anyhow, if you haven't done so already, g to www.jibjab.com and watch "This Land" it summarizes things well.

[Loser]

I just found this (http://www.peroutka2004.com/), so I can say that Bush isn't the worst opportunity by his politics(if you don't count something like 9/11 2, or happenings such). Go to the issues page and look at things like "Women in the Military"

It is the God-commanded order that men are to fight for and protect
women and their country. Women are not to fight for and protect men and
their country. If I'm elected President, I will do everything within my
power to see that women do not serve in the Armed Forces --- at all,
anywhere, period.

What about education? Here's what Mr.Peroutka says about that!

What a privilege to live in a country founded on the principle that there exists a Creator God and that all law and government come from Him! What a wonderful blessing of liberty was bequeathed to us by our forefathers – the liberty to worship God as we choose and to write and speak and think as our conscience dictates without fear of reprisal by tyrannical government ministers!

Central to this liberty is the God-given right to train and to educate our children to think and act as free men and women as we prepare them to take their proper productive place in their families, their churches, and their communities.

But this right and this freedom is under attack today by an evil power that seeks to separate children from their parents' influence and to prepare them not for independent, productive service to God, family and country, but for increasing dependence on the largesse of the growing welfare state and a dangerous new world order. Simply put, they are being trained for slavery!

Luckily that bastard won't be the president...I respect those who believe in God(I myself am uncovered about that - I'm something between atheism and believing in God), but I can't believe that someone would rely a whole country on Him!

[meow]

Originally posted by CitizenSane@Oct 21 2004, 09:50 PM
What is arguably the most important election in recent American history is going to come to a close on Nov. 2. Whether you can or cannot participate, a win for either of the two political parties will likely affect the world on a national and international basis.

I wish to ask what your opinions are. Would either of the major presidential candidates in the running make a better leader and thus provide for a stronger America? And what makes you believe so? Is the two-party system the best way to choose a candidate, or should we have a diverse variety of people vying for the Presidency? And do you feel that the Electoral College, the group of people that voters actually go to the polls to vote for rather than candidates themselves, should have the right to select our president? Or is the popular vote the way to go?

I personally feel that America is waging war on fanatics when our own President happens to be an extremist. I honestly feel that his morals get in the way of his judgment (God is behind us? We are the only ones who are right? Eh?!), and when they don't, money does (what with all the big corporations supporting his campaign). I would feel better if Kerry was at the helm because he seems to me to be more moderate and realistic. The world is not made up of black and white areas, but of differing shades of gray that we must reason out with the powers of logic that human beings are endowed with. Either way, 9/11 has hit us hard, and I believe that Kerry has the right idea when he wants to regain the trust that other nations had in us during the Pre-Bush era.

At any rate, I'd like to hear your ideas. :) Perhaps we can start a discussion.
2287


basically i think anyone else would be better than Bush(and his father). He's just a drunkard who knows nothing about politics, who simply loves wars and hates peace.
afterall, how could you expect a monkey(which looks like human) to think logically? and i really feel sorry for the US residents(and the whole world as well) to have a monkey as their president. Such a shame :(
as i've always told my friends : if i know i'm gonna die, or if i'm going to suicide, i'd first go kill George W Bush. i hate him, i really do.
here's an article which fully features Bin Laden's Tape. read it. he's got his point. and i cant (probably nobody can) disagree with it.
Bin Laden's Tape (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/3628069.stm)

[uire]

Wow. First forum I have ever ran into where people aren't at each other's throats over this election. Two thumbs up.

Peroutka... That fellow has some far fetched ideas, Alan Keyes is a much more reputable source for Christian politics, but sadly his intellectual level far exceeds most Americans; hence, his inability to become president.

If I could vote, I would vote Bush. One reason in particular- conservative judges. I do not believe that that judges should have the power to change the constitution- they should only interpret it. Sadly, this has not been the case.

Secondly, as the founding fathers had in mind, the USA's federal government should not have so much influence on the people, it should be state power- as Ronald Reagen believed.

Thirdly, my family is your average revolve around the military family. The fact that John Kerry betrayed his brothers in arms has greatly effected our voting.

Besides, the president cannot just declare war, or pass a new law, it has to go through the Senate and House- and whoever is the majority usually wins out.

PS- F911 is not an excellent source of information. Much of its content has been disproven.

[Silver]

Dont get me wrong or anything, but I think that they're both insufferable lunatics.
But if i was forced to choose between both of them only, I would enter the elections myself first.

[688206002]

Originally posted by Silver@Oct 24 2004, 11:07 AM
Dont get me wrong or anything, but I think that they're both insufferable lunatics.
3019


Amen.

[mck9235]

So who do you want to win? Doenst matter if you dont live here you still have a opinion, hopefully. Me: Bush!

[CitizenSane]

Kerry all the way! :) :waves flag:

[Loser]

I show no marks to any of them! VIVA LA REVOLUTION!

...But I guess Kerry would be the lesser evil.

[Lord Magicdka]

they all suck, actually, just about everything in america sucks....canada is waaay better...I cant wait til I go back....

[fma]

.... BLAME CANADA. lol. I vote for JFK! Actually i would vote for Bush if i was old enough. He's done a damn good job with the stuff in Iraq i think, and it would be Hell to change to a New Leader and Have him Learn Everything thats Happening and blah blah, Kerry doesn't even know what hes doing. Bush Knows a little more what hes doing than Kerry though.

Actually.. Screw the Goverment ANARCHY all the way!

[Akallen]

Sadly, BUSH SUCKS! I am ANTI BUSH, and PRO-Kerry

[Creator]

Well, Kerry Will Win!! ( I'm 200% sure )

[crimsonmoon]

I agree by saying both suck! But I would say bush would have my vote over kerry. Bush may be dumb as a rock but Kerry seems like a weasel!

[mck9235]

This election is really close, and I dont think anyone will be determined as a clear cut winner till Nov. 2

[688206002]

Originally posted by mck9235@Oct 30 2004, 08:45 PM
This election is really close, and I dont think anyone will be determined as a clear cut winner till Nov. 2
4359


well, obviously you can't have a winner before Nov.2, considering that the election isn't till then :P ;)

but ya kno what, i have a gut feeling that something like the 2000 electíon is gonna happen again, and this election might not get decided till later in the year by the Congress or Supreme Court.

btw, this is just too tempting so i gotta say this:
i have this new articles section up as part of my site; it's (hopefully) going to have articles dealing with all sorts of things... a friend of mine just posted an article recently about the US Election. Please visit it and register and contribute articles if you wish!
http://688206002.hostmatrix.org/wordpress/


EDIT: oh, and i'm really suprised at the disproportionate difference between Bush and Kerry supporters... this is very far off from popular polls (which usually have them in a tie or have Kerry leading by a minute margin)

[shrimp134]

Wow, if my mom read this thread, lets just say whoever said they voted for BUSH would get their Left and Right Testicles cut off by her....if your a male that is....if your a female, you can imagine what else would be cut off.....I hope thats appropriate, but anyways, how can you vote for BUSH, he has no F*cking clue what the heck he is doing, seriosly, when Clinton left off....we werent in debt, you know, the UsA is like in some trillion dollar dept, we are in a war which should of never been, we are having innocent young and old american women/men die for absolutely nothing...I mean seriosly, would you guys/gals like it if Iraq came to the USA and tried running our country and gov't, DIDNT ThINK so....I could ramble on forever, but I dont have that much time, VOTE KERRY or ...well...imagine.....:)

[Loser]

Originally posted by Creator@Oct 31 2004, 04:36 AM
Well, Kerry Will Win!! ( I'm 200% sure )
4341

Unless the counters make, err, some MISTAKES again.

[buastard]

are bush and kerry even respected???? i dont think they get as much respect as they shd as US presidents and definately not from me anyway Bush's an dick to me coz of the iraq stuff andKerry..well i dunno. i do hope kerry wins tho. heck.

[fma]

Someone Make another Topic and use the Following Poll: How Many People Think There will be a Recount? I bet anyone Here that if Bush wins Kerry will "demand" a recount, and it will be like last election. Then after they do that Congress will pass some law limited the times you can demand a recount. Anyone wanna Bet?

[uire]

I bet anyone Here that if Bush wins Kerry will "demand" a recount, and it will be like last election. Then after they do that Congress will pass some law limited the times you can demand a recount.
:lol: I can see that happening.

I do not see how testicles can have anything to do with the election :blink:

Bush: conservative judges will abide by the constitution.

[xtina]

I am not that really in to politics but I want Kerry to win because well... here in Sweden you only get to hear about Bush or Kerry and I think Kerry would be the best president ;)

[zefiruw]

Im not in US (chek flag<<) so i dont really care, but i think kerry will win cos there was no weapons of mass destruction in Iraq so... definetly Tony Blair wont win the next election in UK.

[688206002]

I don't know about that; it's not like the people get to directly vote for the PM in UK; if the Labour Party wins again, Blair will stay on as PM.

[zefiruw]

ye but cos of the weapon ting i dont think he will.

[zefiruw]

Originally posted by Silver@Oct 24 2004, 05:07 PM
Dont get me wrong or anything, but I think that they're both insufferable lunatics.
3019



Truer words have never been spoken. (well exept that pinochio wears ladies underware)